"To say that the Police Officers who go into these communities don't care for the communities they work in each and every day is a complete disconnect...we've asked City Council members to ride along with these officers, and they don't. We've asked people in Springfield to do it, and they won't. It's because their narrative will change."
On this edition of Against The Current, Dan Proft has a riveting conversation with Dean Angelo, Sr., President of Chicago Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 7.
Angelo says the claim of systemic racism within CPD as presented in the report issued by Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s task force is “ridiculous.”
Angelo predicts Chicago will “light up this summer” because, in part, of a level of disrespect being shown to Chicago police he hasn’t seen in his 36-year career in law enforcement.
Angelo adds that the result of people who have no idea how police do their job telling them how to do their job is “more people will die.”
Check out the explosive, wide-ranging discussion of police, street violence and politics with FOP President Dean Angelo, Sr., on this week’s ATC.
View full transcript
Dan Proft: Dan Proft coming to you live from the Skyline Club for another edition of Against the Current. We’re pleased to be joined on this edition by Dean Angelo, Sr. – he’s the President of the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 7 in Chicago. Dean, thanks so much for joining us, appreciate it. Dean Angelo Sr.: You’re welcome. Dan Proft: So poll out this week, Kaiser Foundation, New York Times poll that finds Rahm Emanuel with a 62% disapproval rate, 70% disapproval rate among African-American residents of Chicago. Why do you think his disapproval rate is so high? Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, I believe a lot of it has to do with what happened with the video, with the Laquan McDonald incident, and what’s happened subsequent to that with the amount of crime, the increase in crime, the mistrust of the police department that was written in the taskforce report didn’t help; whether we totally disagree with the findings of that report, I don’t think it helped the overall situation. Dan Proft: Do you think that part of that is Rahm Emanuel and his administration and a very quiet, church-mouse like, City Council, essentially fermenting mistrust of police, that we have this conversation going on now that police is where we should focus our attention, rather than gangbangers, misconduct within the Chicago Police Department, as opposed to violent street gangs? Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, there was a target put on the FOP soon after the release of the video. It was said that the video could not be released because of the FOP contract. My response to that would be what changed in our contract from November of 2014 to November of 2015 to allow that video to be released? Nothing changed. Dan Proft: So Rahm could have released the video if he wanted to. Dean Angelo Sr.: There’s nothing changed in our contract to point the finger at the FOP. Downtown, the City Council, the department heads, all pointed their accusatory finger and put us in the crosshairs, and I think that was unfair, and I believe that also lead to the – I testified at the City Council shortly thereafter, and we were riddled with this contract, the FOP, you’re the problem, why? What did we do? This didn’t start with us but there are fingers pointed in our direction and now we’ve become the target. Dan Proft: And so, that report that you’re referencing, that came out early spring, that essentially the conclusion was, or one of the overriding conclusions – this was Lori Lightfoot, essentially a spokesman for this task force that the mayor assembled – essentially was the problem with Chicago Police Department is systemic racism; that task force went so far in their report as to essentially say Chicago Police Officers, 48% of whom are minorities, Black or Latino, have a disregard for the lives of minority residents of Chicago; your reaction to that. Dean Angelo Sr.: It’s ridiculous. To say that the officers that go into these communities don’t care for the communities they work in each and every day is a complete disconnect. What we would like to do is invite all of these people that buy into that to ride along with those officers in the squad car with them. We’ve asked city council people to do it and they don’t. We’ve asked people in Springfield to do it and they won’t. We don’t know why. Dan Proft: Too dangerous. Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, I don’t know. Maybe they’ll lose their narrative if they go in there and they see what happens, and they see the way that officers are faced with a level of disrespect that’s never been seen before, in my 36 years. And I think it’s important that they get a feel for it. When I testified at the Senate’s Subcommittee about body camera coming, I was looked at with confusion by some of the people in the Senate Subcommittee because I told them, you’re going to be subjected to a segment of our society that you have no idea exists, and you need to be exposed to this. I don’t want to see any editing in these videos that come out with the body cameras. I think it’s important that our entire population see what police officers are confronted with each and every day. And I told them then – this was over a year ago – you’re going to come away with a brand new level of respect for what the women and men do each and every day in the city of Chicago. We’ve got a great police department. Got some very dedicated professional people wearing this uniform, but they get short change with comments like systemic racism because they don’t see what these police officers are exposed to every day. And it’s important that you do. Dan Proft: So you thought, you know, rough number’s 6000 Black and Latino police officers on the Chicago police department. You interact with them on a daily basis in a way that few people do. When that report came out with those charges, and then again, as we’re discussing, the way that Chicago police have been targeted as the enemy in certain circles – not everywhere, but in certain circles . What’s the reaction from those Black and Latino officers to those conclusions to this kind of rhetoric? Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, we have African American officers that work in Englewood, and they want to know if they’re racist too, because that’s 99% of their stops are with African Americans. And that’s part of the problem that I have with that statement and Miss Lightfoot’s report; they never removed that variable. They never removed the Hispanic guys and girls that are working in Pilsen, or in Humboldt Park. They never removed the African American officers that are working in Roseland and in Englewood. And if you don’t take that into consideration, your numbers are skewed. And that’s why I got the buyer statements that I came away with that report. If you don’t consider the entire population of your study, and then remove the population that doesn’t play to that result, you’re unfairly targeting the entire department as being racist, and you’re not even considering the variables about ethnic officers stopping at their populations. Or are they racist too? Dan Proft: And this is also, isn’t to say, that every white officer that stops a Black or Latino person, or every Black or Latino officer that stops a white person. Sometimes it doesn’t have to do with race, I presume; it has to do with somebody’s conduct. Is that a possibility? Dean Angelo Sr.: Or where you’re assigned. Dan Proft: Right. But somebody’s conduct within the district you’re assigned. They’re not randomly stopping people because they’re a different race than you. I presume that’s not happening on a routine basis. That’s not police protocol. Dean Angelo Sr.: Right. We don’t seek out people that don’t look like us and pull them over. What we do is we look for behaviors. We look for criminal behaviors. We get 911 calls that send you the… plus, if you’re assigned to – if you’re a Caucasian girl or guy and you’re assigned to Englewood, 99% of the population in Englewood is African American. So when you’re conducting your daily business and you’re routine traffic stops, or you’re looking for a group based on a call for service; there’s a bunch of gangbangers on the corner and they’re selling narcotics, or they’re in possession of a handgun, you don’t get to pick and chose what corner that call is taking you to. You stop the people on that corner, and those are kids of color. Dan Proft: Chicago Police Lieutenant, a friend of mine, made an interesting comment when we were talking about this. He said, “So if I’m working in Englewood and I see a White kid, or a White guy there, that’s unusual” because of what you just said, the demographics the neighborhood, “So probably they’re from the suburbs to buy drugs, or they’re from some other neighborhood to buy drugs. Now if I target him for being in Englewood to buy drug, am I, as a White guy or a Black guy, racially profiling the White guy who’s in Englewood to buy drugs?” I mean this is how crazy it gets when you, seems to me, just narrowly focus on the race of the suspect or subject and the race of the police officers, rather than the contextual information of who’s doing what. Dean Angelo Sr.: It’s criminal profiling, and when I was in the gang crime unit, I used to work the West Side a lot, and when we saw a kid drive up around Washington and Pine, which is predominantly African American, and he’s got a suburban city sticker, and he’s in mommy’s BMW, we pull him down and we know exactly what he’s there for. He’s not lost; he’s not looking for his high school class mate. He’s buying dope. We would do that regularly because it’s criminal profiling. We look for behaviors that fit the pattern, and that example fits the pattern. Dan Proft: How impactful do you think it will be, the decision by Mayor Emanuel to remove Garry McCarthy as police chief, bringing Eddie Johnson, the African American as police chief. Is that something that’s more of a PR move, or is that something that’s going to materially change the police culture and start to maybe rebuild some of the trust that has been watered down for this report? Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, you know, sublieutenant Johnson’s coming was a lot of positive feedback from our members, and for a boss to go that high up the ranks and not have somebody call and say “Oh my God, how could they possibly pick this guy?”, we haven’t heard that yet. And it’s been a while, we would have heard by now. So a lot of the press from our membership that’s coming forward about superintendent Johnson is pretty positive. So he more or less is being portrayed as a policeman’s policeman; as a guy that came from our own ranks – which is a positive form, based on the last two, Garry McCarthy and Jody Weis – so guys were happy that that happen. We had a 66% chance we were going to get somebody from out of town. Dan Proft: Right, tribute the finalists. Dean Angelo Sr.: Right, and people were a little concerned about that, our rank and file. So I think, right now, it’s early, but right now, departmental-wise, he’s got some pretty good reports coming from the rank and file. How he resonates that to the communities and the churches and the politicians, that’s a different story. Dan Proft: Because there’s a political component, of course, to being the Chicago police chief. Dean Angelo Sr.: Yes, it’s all political, this entire city’s politics. Dan Proft: I’ve heard that, yeah. But let me ask you this now, because we’ve talked in the show about this and we talked about, you know, in any organization, 13,000 people, no less, an organization as big as Chicago police department, you’re going to have people that are bad actors, or that make a catastrophic error in judgment, that do bad things. And one of the things that you said when we were talking about this, just in terms of the adjudicative process to deal with a police officer who’s done something wrong, or maybe has repeatedly done something wrong; so you know, you told me this, I’m paraphrasing, but you essentially said “I’m not going to tell you that no bad cop has ever been put back on the street, because that’s happened. Clearly, we know that’s happened”. So, if that does happen, even if it’s a relatively isolated incident in the context of an organization this big, what should be done? What is the philosophy of the FOP and rank and file police officers to deal with that officer that is a bad actor, or that committed a bad act? Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, my job and any union’s job is to keep your employees employed and your members employed. So when we get a case of misconduct brought to us by an officer, we look at the individual incident. We also look at their background. You cannot go from 0 disciplinary history to separation, in 99% of the cases. You need to have a foundation. You need to have said along that officer’s career, who’s got a 95% efficiency and 98% efficiency and his one year hard workers has never been taken to task, and then you write him up and you try to remove him in 30 days pending separation on an incident. You say, and in the past, here she’s done this, this and this. Well, where is it? Where is the history, where’s the foundation? Well, we never really wrote him up, because he was a worker. Well, that’s on you. We don’t perform that task for the department. If the department has a guy that’s got a behavioral issue, then discipline is supposed to adjust behavior. If they have a disciplinary history and they attempt to give him an oral reprimand and then a written reprimand and then a day, then three days, and then they send him to behavior alert, or the Behavior Intervention Program, and they take him to classes and they sensitize them, and they put them through the process, and then they come back and continue that behavior that they were called on the carpet for, then you have an opportunity, organizationally, to either severely admonish and discipline them, or remove them. But when you don’t follow the process and you don’t try to adjust that behavior with increasing discipline, that’s on them. So when we get to an arbitrator and we have an officer that’s looking at extensive time off, suspension-wise, the first thing that they’ll look at is their complementary and disciplinary history, and if there’s nothing there, just send them back to work. Dan Proft: Now is there such a thing, or should there be, of 0 tolerance for certain behaviors? Drug use on the job comes to mind; if you’re convicted of a crime, particularly a violent crime, something like that where you are one and done; it doesn’t need to be a history of bad choices. It can be one catastrophic bad choice and we can’t tolerate you in the forcer. Dean Angelo Sr.: And that’s in play right now. Dan Proft: What’s the stricture? Dean Angelo Sr.: If you do a drug test and you drop a sample, a urine sample, you’re positive, you’re going. If you’re arrested for a crime and – even before conviction, they’ll get rid of you. In the circumstance with Officer Van Dyke, he was in the performance of his duty. So although the video is a silent movie that people see, oh my god, here’s the incident, he’s in the performance of his duty. And whether the 16 shots are going to be argued in court, that is subsequent to the initial incident. We saw a video that came out shortly thereafter, and there was the audio attached to it when Alvarez was put in and out, and they showed the video along with the audio to substantiate the anxiety and the stress and the calls, “Oh my god, he’s got a gun, he’s running this way” and the conversations are jumping all over each other, and then the incident occurs. It justifies what happens on the scene of these types of incidents. We don’t see that and we don’t hear that in this video. We don’t hear the radio calls. We hear in the proffer, where they read for the bond, we heard that such a such car calls for a tazer. Immediately, 8-23 responds, comes on the air, “We’re on our way”. Given you the impression that 8-23 has a tazer and no one wants to wait for them to show up. 8-23 is on the scene of that incident. They don’t have a tazer. But they sort of subliminally let this little bit of information out to give the impression that no one wanted to wait for the tazer. There are no tazers on the street that night. They’re in the station. So I think that wasn’t fair and slanted the overall narrative of that event. Let’s hear the audio, let’s here that the officer involved, officer Van Dyke is on the scene, blocks the offender’s path to get to Burger King, because there’s people in Burger King, he’s still armed with the knife and he just confronted 2 other people with the knife. So we don’t hear that. We don’t hear that he’s still there, or that he’s never left the scene. He’s part of this. So does that give any more credence to the incident? I don’t know. But why are we hearing about one audio that they justified the incident and we don’t hear it in this one, because nobody wants to justify… Dan Proft: I understand, I mean, I don’t want to relitigate this whole matter as it’s still pending in a criminal court, but people look at that video; obviously people are upset, based on everything that lead up to its final release. Like you were talking about too, we make one decision for a year; then we make another decision under political pressure because we know the video’s coming out per a judicial decree and we want to cover our butts, basically. In addition to the whole opaque nature of the settlement that was preemptively offered to Laquan McDonald family. But you look at that video and you see a couple of things. One, you see other officers on the scene that didn’t open fire. And two, of course, it’s the - and this is what we heard back from a lot of listeners; lay people, like myself – I watch that, I say, “Okay, maybe I can try and put myself in that officer’s position and he’s close enough, and did he make a faint toward the officer, didn’t he?” I can see him shooting once, but to shoot 16 times, to continue shooting when Laquan McDonald is on the ground, the combination of other officers on the scene not opening fire and the 16 shots kind of shocks people’s conscience. So what would you say in terms of telling them how they should try and understand that scene or perhaps withhold judgment based on what a police officer is supposed to do in that circumstance. Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, without getting into the case, but, you know, you asked questions so I’ll give you an answer, so I’m not going to lie, we have a situation where I believe tactfully there was an error in judgment the way they approached. When the vehicle that officer Van Dyke is in pulls up they’re nose away from Laquan McDonald. That car should have been faced the opposite way. And not only that, it angles to the right; the driver makes a quick right turn. Dan Proft: Should face the opposite way, should have been facing front? Should have faced Laquan McDonald to the front? Dean Angelo Sr.: When your door opens, you have cover. You use your door as cover. Not only does that not happen, but in the last second, the driver pulls the wheel to the right, which puts McDonald right almost in the path of where officer Van Dyke is; so when he comes out, bam, he’s right there, no cover. Tactfully, that was, I think, an issue. The volleys of shots that occurred, there’s court precedent that once you engage, there’s no limitation on the engagement. So I believe that will be coming out as well. There’s so many things that are going to be coming out in this trial, that I think people are going to get a different perspective of the event. Once they hear the audio, or once they have experts come in and testify to things like this, I believe that there’s going to be a lot of people that don’t have a preconceived notion of what should happen, that let the opportunities of the court play themselves out. And they’re going to sit back and they’re going to go, “I’ve never thought of that”, or a light bulb might go off, or there might be some type of reexamination within themselves of what they see and what happened down there. Dan Proft: Are you concerned at all what will happen in a city that’s racially polarized and suffers from de facto segregation? We talked about some of the neighborhoods, in the schools as well as in the neighborhoods. I mean, the two are connected, of course. If officer Van Dyke was acquitted for the murder of Laquan McDonald, what could happen in the city in terms of the public’s response? Dean Angelo Sr.: I’m worried about the city every day. It would be accentuated if there’s a not guilty verdict. There is a attention on our streets right now that our officers see every day, when they’re out there. There are communities; you mentioned the communities in our city; there are neighborhoods in our city where the fourth generation is walking through the same empty lot that was burned out in the 60s, and no one has put a foundation. No one’s thought about building there. My God, how can you not look at that and say, “We’ve got a problem”. It’s not our job to build that building or that senior center, but there are kids who’s grandfathers walk through the same empty lot. And it’s a shame. Dan Proft: And go to the same terrible school that hasn’t educated anybody in four generations. Dean Angelo Sr.: Yeah, you know, it’s a shame that nobody looks at that. And then you have people that represent that, that come to their door, knock on their door for a vote, and they come in blue jeans and a sweat shirt and once they get in office, they’re wearing a $400 tie. Come on. Take a look around your own community. When you look at some of the legislation that’s being planned in, not only in Springfield, but also here, you have individuals that are elected to represent and keep safe their constituents. Some of the legislation, some of the attempts that they’re making at minimizing policing, proactive policing specifically, is only going to further endanger their own constituents. And I’ve told them in Springfield, I said “You have to be careful at what you do”. Talk about it with the investigatory stop order that they came out with. Or in Springfield we were able to minimize all the language and make it just a small little contact card, similar to what we had. And then it comes back to Chicago, and they give the authorship away. And it turns into this two page document. And I told them, “You are going to adversely impact policing”, so you’re going to see less and less contacts occur because it just becomes so cumbersome and so time consuming. You and I’ve got a box that we’re going to patrol, for our 9 hours, right, 8 and a half hours. In that box, that’s our strategic assignment; unless we get a call outside of our box, that’s where we’re at. So we’ve got in our box five hot corners. And they’re throwing dope, they’re making money like crazy. It’s all about money. On those corners we’ve got the same players. They come out all the time, whether it’s day time afternoons or night time, they’re still out there throwing. There’s weapons there, there’s shootings there – because somebody wants their corners, so they’re going to try and buy and knock them off the corners so they can take it over. So it’s a beehive of activity. If we stop this corner twice during our tour, there’s five guys in there, that’s 10 pages. We’ve also got four other corners. There’s 4, 5, 6 guys on each of those corners. Now we’re at 20 pages, and now we’re at 30 pages and now we’re at 40 pages. And each one of these documents takes a couple minutes for us to type, because we’re not secretarial in our skills. And now we’ve got to go back on the street, and we stop them again, because somebody calls now, they got a gun. And now somebody just drove by and shot at one of them. And now we go back and we stop them again, and hands on contact dictates these reports. In the meantime, we’ve got calls for service we’ve got to take care of. When we come out of the box at roll call, we’ve got, it’s called a wrap, it’s stack jobs from the previous watch that they never caught up on. So we’ve got 3-4 of those waiting for us when we get our radio and get in the car. And it never stops. And now we’ve got these on-views and these other calls specifically designed for us to go and try to put a lid on, or keep a lid on those hot corners. And it’s each and every day. And then where these reports go is back to the ACLU. Wait a minute, you’ve got two White guys stopping all these African Americans; 40 times a day? Oh my God. What’s going to happen now if the affidavit is removed from complaints against policemen, like they want they start in Springfield? Dan Proft: So they can do anonymous complaints. Dean Angelo Sr.: Right. Most gangbangers are going to have their people on speed dial. And Dan and Dean are going to get 20 complaints. Dan Proft: The police review board. Dean Angelo Sr.: Right. We’re going to wind up having complaints levied against us non-stop. And our serge is going to say, “Dan and Dean, you know what? You guys need a hammer to hit you over the head? Stay away from that corner! These guys are beefing on you like crazy and I’ve got to do paper on each one of those beefs.” Dan Proft: I want to pick up there, but I want to close the loop on Laquan McDonald. FOP took some heat, some public outcry over hiring Jason Van Dyke, the officer waiting trial on the Laquan McDonald murder, hiring him to do basically kind of menial tasks, to work for $10/hour, or whatever it is, while he’s waiting trial. What’s your response to those people that said, “Boy, bad optics at minimum. I understand you have to represent your members, but hiring Jason Van Dyke to work for FOP while he’s waiting trial, not the greatest decision”. Dean Angelo Sr.: That was my call and I wear that, and I would do the same thing again tomorrow. And I apologize to people that take it the wrong way. But here’s an individual with two young girls, who’s wife had a family business at a park district where she would teach a Spin class or Zumba, or whatever the heck they call it. Dan Proft: You’re obviously not taking Spin classes or Zumbas, because you don’t know what they are. Dean Angelo Sr.: Do I look like I’m taking classes? But the Blacks Lives Matter and some other voices from the neighborhood get on her website and start threatening her. Threatening her life, threatening her vehicle, threatening the lives and vehicles of any patrons that decide to go to that park and participate. So there are kids, mom and tots classes at that same location. She shut her business down, and that’s what they said. We’re going to shut your business down. So you lose that. We generally find officers in a no-pay status our working opportunities, and it’s an unarmed security guard. You drive me around somebody’s parking lot. So if I’m going to put Jason, who’s been death threat… death threats’ like crazy; I get death threats every week. And they don’t want to work with him because he’s got death threats against him. And you’re unarmed, remember, so you can’t find him a security job. I can’t get him on a delivery truck because the guys that would hire him to deliver are worried about the few drops of goods at that store, they don’t want to deal with that company anymore. So they’ll lose business. I can’t get him on a loading dock because he might not get along with everybody at the loading dock. So he’s unemployable, completely unemployable. What are we supposed to do? The FOP’s hired people before, that have been in some pretty newsworthy incidents over the past, and all I did was repeat the practice. Dan Proft: On the issue of stops and what’s going to happen; going back to the Dan and Dean hypothetical of stay away from that street corner, so the numbers are out this year – we’ll get to the violent crime statistics in a minute – but investigative stops down 90% year over year, drug arrest tracking to be the lowest number since the Nixon administration, and I assume that’s not because drug trafficking has disappeared in Chicago. So what is it that Chicago residents, and frankly, the metropolitan area, the world – Chicago’s an international city – should understand about those statistics? The precipitous decline in investigative stops and in drug arrest; is that good news or bad news? Dean Angelo Sr.: It’s bad news, and I told them this was going to happen a year ago. I said, you are going to see these things drop dramatically. You cannot expect working policemen to take away from the work day and all those calls for service and everything else they do and then throw this on top of them, and then send it to their organization, that is not our fan. Dan Proft: ACLU. Dean Angelo Sr.: Yeah, and then… to what end? Does that mean I get called up, does that mean I go into behavior alert? Does that mean I get removed from my position or from my district? And what happens with that when my sergeant tells me to stay away? We give him the corner. We lose the corner, we lose the block; we lose the block, we lose the community. And it’s going to light up this summer. You’ve got to make sure that we don’t minimize the capabilities of active police officers to go after people that are there breaking the law every day. We’re not talking about the kid coming out of the high school with his book bag, and we tackle him and go through his books. That’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about that population that people don’t realize is extremely busy in our neighborhoods. And these are neighborhoods that we don’t live in. None of guys don’t live in Englewood or Rosalind, but they go there every day, and they worked their rear ends off to try and keep a lid on and try and keep those kids safe to going and coming from school. Dan Proft: And most of the residents of that neighborhood, like every neighborhood are law abiding. So they deserve the same protection and they want the same protection. This is one of the other things that seems to be lost in the discussion is the residents of Englewood and Rosalin want the same things as the residents of Streeterville, where I live. They want to be safe when their kids go to school, they want to be safe at night, so you’re not doing them any favors by seeding turn to gangbangers. Dean Angelo Sr.: No, you’re not, and that’s the downside of this anti-police campaign that politicians are running on. They think that this is going to keep them in office; I think it’s going to blow up, and I think the reverse is going to happen, because someone’s going to step up and say, “You know what, we need the police”. The law abiding people we’re at four forums that Lori Lifefoot held. God forbid they wanted a mic and spoke about how much they liked the police, and how much they would need more police there. They’re going to get chased out of those places, so they didn’t show. She didn’t hear from those people because those individuals are afraid to call 911 because people have standard capabilities on their phones. And so, that’s Mrs. Jackson and Mrs. Angelo calling the police. So we know where she is, and the fear is at 3 in the morning, your front and back steps are going to be on fire. It’s happened. So they stay back, and they don’t participate. They don’t go to CAPS meetings and complain, because the gangs are sending people to the CAPS meeting to see me complain. Dan Proft: Now I’ll be a downfall. Dean Angelo Sr.: So what you have to do is realize that that population is huge in Chicago, that, like the police, want the police to take those kids off the corner. Now they can send their kid to the store. If they can’t send their kid to the store, if the police don’t participate in proactive law enforcement, what’s going to happen is that store is going to be taken over, and that store is going to go out of business and they’re going to pay the store owner just enough money to keep the lights on so they can conduct business in the backroom. Dan Proft: So is this the Rahm effect? Is that a fair characterization? Just like the Ferguson effect that you have? The decline, because otherwise some people listening to this may say, “Wait a second, what, the police don’t want to do their job because they’ve got more paperwork to fill out? What’s that?” Find somebody who’ll do their job and fill out the paperwork. Are the police falling down the job, is it the Rahm effect because of policies and antagonism towards the department where you put essentially the civilian leadership of the city on the other side of the skirmish line, against the police? What’s the major explanation for the numbers that we’re talking about? Dean Angelo Sr.: The biggest problem I see now is that you have people that have never had a weapon on their hip nor been a police officer telling police what to do. Sheriff Clarke from Milwaukee called me up, we talked a couple of hours and he likens it to, we have a death on the operating table and people get all upset. And then we turn around and tell the surgeons how to perform their operations. We tell the anesthesiologist what he should do setting-wise to keep the medicine just long enough so it doesn’t kill somebody. So we participate and we give them direction. More people will die if we do that and they listen to us. The surgeons listen to lay people, we’re going to kill more people. Dan Proft: Sheriff Clarke has also said, because we had him on the show and he’s no shrieking violet, as you know, Sheriff David Clarke in Milwaukee County, one of my favorites; and maybe you should wear the cowboy hat, like he does. Dean Angelo Sr.: You think I can pull that off? No. Dan Proft: But he also said, going back to the report, if the Chicago police have a problem with systemic racism, as this report alleges, as Lori Lightfoot and her star chamber alleges, then Rahm Emanuel should resign, because he’s the civilian leadership; the City Council should resign; they’re the civilian leadership and the civilian leadership sets the political culture. And they have oversight responsibilities over the police, over the fire, over the first responders, over the entire city. What do you say to that? Dean Angelo Sr.: I don’t think everybody in the City Council or in City Hall buys into that report, quite honestly. Dan Proft: They’re not really forthcoming with saying so. Dean Angelo Sr.: No, because they all have to run for office, and it’s a wait… Dan Proft: That’s a commentary on them, isn’t it? Dean Angelo Sr.: No, you know what, people want to be employed, but you’ve got to remember who you represent. I represent the rank and file. That’s who I work for. If they don’t like what I’m doing, they’ll vote me out, next year, around this time, as a matter of fact, in April. But that’s my concern and that’s what… my son’s on this job. Dan Proft: He’s a Chicago police officer. Dean Angelo Sr.: Yes, and everything I do I focus on him, and making sure that what we do is right by the police officers. I can’t be concerned about the alderman in this ward and what he wants to do to keep an office. That’s on him. But what I’ve told people in Springfield and what I’ve told people in City Council is you have people that have never done police work trying to tell the police how to do their job; more people will die. Dan Proft: Well, and that’s what’s happening, because the first four months of this year, murders are up 50% year over year, shootings are up 70% year over year; actually, through April, more murders than in 2012. Most murders in Rahm’s tenure, the first four months of the year, more murders than in 2012 which was the great carnage year, if you will; not to be flippant about it, but that’s what it was. And so, is that a response to the Laquan McDonald controversy, the other video tapes that have come out with police misconduct, Philip Coleman being another one, for example, combined with this police report, combined with the idea that the civilian leadership doesn’t have your back, rank and file police officer. Dean Angelo Sr.: And I think that’s problematic, that’s hugely problematic, because you need people like superintendent, you need people to come out and talk about why this guy’s out of jail after he’s got a long history of felony convictions, that was involved in shooting 3 of our officers in a single incident. And it’s the court structure, it’s the jail, it’s the overall… Dan Proft: States’ Attorney’s Office. Dean Angelo Sr.: Yeah, you have to coddle the offender. I just heard that the number 3 down in Washington said we can no longer use the term convict or felon; we were talking about reintroducing people into the community, that are convicts and felons. Dan Proft: What term do you use, are you supposed to use? Dean Angelo Sr.: I don’t know. I just heard it on the radio this morning. Dan Proft: The new arrival, immigrant from the prison system? Dean Angelo Sr.: I don’t know, I don’t see why you have to walk lightly around offenders and violent individuals and then body slam police each and every day. If this was a football game, they’d be throwing flags for piling on. Every day it’s a new ad line. Everybody wants to get their ink, their columns, on the backs of the police, although they might have written about public housing, or they might have written about the schools, or they might have written about real estate, now everybody’s a police expert. They’re not police experts. The people at city council are not police experts. And if you look at Lori Lightwood’s report, there are five policemen involved in that report. They’re all ex-bosses. And you need rank and file people to tell you how what you’re going to do, what you’re planning on doing is going to impact policing, and we don’t have that anywhere in this mix. Dan Proft: You essentially insinuated that it’s going to be a violent summer in Chicago, and of course, it’s already been a violent first four months, as they’ve just described. Another friend of mine in the police force said here’s what’s going to happen because of the culture right now, because of where things stand. Something’s going to happen in Streeterville, or Lincoln Park, or Old Town, one of the neighborhoods where violent crime isn’t supposed to happen; like it’s accepted that it’s going to happen in Rosalin and Englewood or South Shore. It’s going to happen, somebody’s going to get murdered, and people are going to be like what the heck is going on? Somebody’s going to get shot in Michigan Avenue and people are going to be like what the heck is going on? How could this be happening? And his suggestion, to me, was this is what happens when you essentially tell the gangbanger there is no line between you and the rest of civilization. You can do whatever you want in your neighborhood or any neighborhood. Do you think that’s true? Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, I’ve been teaching it how to [ride? 00:39:18] for 22 years and I’ve always taught that law enforcement is selective and deployment in the selective. When you have body counts in Rosalin on a regular basis, people get accustomed to it. And you don’t increase the patrol, and you don’t increase the notoriety or doesn’t run a headline, but when you have an incident at DePaul, oh my God, stop, what are we going to do, how are we going to fix it? It leads to exactly what you’re talking about. Dan Proft: There more outrage and more ink devoted to somebody’s iPhone getting stolen on North Avenue Beach than there is seven people murdered, 49 shot over Mother’s Day Weekend in the neighborhoods that don’t generate a lot of tax funding for the city. Dean Angelo Sr.: Or 9 year old assassinated because of his father. Dan Proft: Or 9 year old assassinated. Dean Angelo Sr.: You know, and it has a very short lifespan. People should have been screaming about that poor kid. It’s a shame that we get accustomed, and communities get accustomed. You’ve got young kids that can tell you what caliber gun that the last shot was, because it’s the way they grow up. And they’re so exposed to it they get accustomed to that. When you go to a public school and you ask somebody who knows somebody that’s been shot, every hand goes up. If that was the case at Walter Payton, or if that was the case at a North Side school, or in a ritzier neighborhood, people would be outraged. But because it’s controlled and it’s environmental, people are, “Oh well”, and they let it go. How could you let that go? You’ve got to stop that. If you don’t put a cap on the dirt it’s going to be in Michigan Avenue. We’ve got people being shot on every highway, on Lakeshore Drive, at Foster the other night. And people are just, “Oh my God”. Well, it’s 4 in the morning. Don’t go out after midnight. Nothing good happens after midnight. But at some point in time, people are going to go “Timeout! What the heck is going on?” That’s why I’m telling them, or I’m asking the electeds to hold off on your legislation. Let the DOG finish their report. They’re here. Everybody downtown and everybody in Springfield, and everybody in city council are trying to get ahead of the DOG. Why? They’re here. Why are you trying to legislate something now? And they’re going to tell you what you need, and then it could be too late. We might not need all of this. Dan Proft: But how sanguine are you about what DOG is going to do? Do you have any sense that, per their report in Ferguson, that they may do very much like what Rahm Emanuel’s assembled taskforce say, which is “We have a conclusion, now we’re going to work backward to provide a rationale, and we’re going to mirror what Lori Lightfoot and the others said in that taskforce report”. I mean, do you have any reason to believe the DOG is going to be more even handed than was the taskforce. Dean Angelo Sr.: Yes, I went out to Washington when Lisa Madigan wrote a letter requesting, and the mayor and the superintendent at the time, so we don’t hit them. I was on the phone with our National President, Chuck Canterbury, that day. And I said, “Chuck, can you get me on her agenda?” And he goes, “Sure, I’ve just read what’s going on, let me make a phone call”, he calls me back the next day, I’m on their agenda for Wednesday, the following Wednesday. This was like a Thursday. I get there and I’m supposed to meet with Loretta Lynch, I end up meeting with Vanita Gupta, the number 2, and seven other – at least seven other - attorneys from the DOG, and Zach Fardon. Miss Lynch is with the President about the San Bernardino incident, so that’s why she wasn’t with us. She announces on Monday their coming. I’m already on their agenda from the previous week, because I know they’re coming. You have to be an idiot to think they’re not going to show. And I brought them my contract, and I brought them my background, my resume, and then I gave them videos that we put out for the FOP, and when I was talking to them… Dan Proft: Videos like training videos? Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, where is your community, you come from your community, got most of the guys, grew up in the neighborhood where they work, and things like that. Dan Proft: Profiles that says their worth. Dean Angelo Sr.: And we started talking, and when I had to tell them that we have police officers that have been on the job for 12 years before they took their first Sergeant’s exam, which is what happened, they go “How come?” And I go “No, when they get here, ask them”. And they’re writing like crazy, and when I told them that we have 70% of the in-car cameras that don’t function as intended, they go “Why?” I don’t know. We’ve got GPS devices in the roofs of the cars, so it’s operator error. These are wires from the trunk through the roof, and they’re not connected properly. Electricians are finding them left and right. 90% of the ones they found were never connected. And those cars have been out in the street for 5 years. So we’re supposed to see a little dot where the car goes. You would think somebody at OEMC would say, “Hey, where are these cars?” Dan Proft: So is it you’ve got a leadership problem in the department, and civilian leadership as well, then. Dean Angelo Sr.: It’s a city that works, you know? It’s just another day in the Chicago police department. Our cars are tailed, but we had to bargain for 400 cars we bought every year in the contract, and they go, “Why?” I don’t know, ask them why we had to do that. When people look at our contract, they see that we can change our statement once we make a view on the video that exists; once we find out the video exists. That’s not what we wanted in that contract. We wanted the department to tell us if there were videos that were available so we could be more accurate on our statements prior to giving a statement. He said no; they want to play gotcha. Why? What kind of game is this? But you can change the statement once you see the video. Makes no sense; when you read it makes no sense. It’s like we pull a shot on somebody. We tried to get the video’s view early, and before we made statements we were told no. And when I told them in DC, they said “Why?” I said, I don’t know, ask them when they get here. I don’t have answers for these questions. We’re not trying to keep bad guys on the street. We’re not trying to pull the wall on people. We’re not trying to get the city to pay out these huge settlements. But how do you pay somebody 20 million dollars that brings a gun to the street and points it at a policeman and gets shot? How do you pay that guy money? It’s like “Payday”; come out, point a gun, you get paid. Dan Proft: So when the issue of settlement, saying some 600 million dollars in settlements this city has paid out for police involved cases over the last decade, you’re suggesting that yeah, perhaps there were some incidents of cops doing bad things that expose them to civil liability, and perhaps there are some cases where you should go ask the court councilor at the city of Chicago why they’re settling these cases. Dean Angelo Sr.: Exactly. Why don’t they go to trial? I was sued years and years ago for 8 million dollars. It ran for four years. Off again, on again, off again, on again. They went from 8 million to 4 million to 2 million, to a million, and they wound up giving the guy $30,000. And I said don’t give him anything. We didn’t do anything wrong. Let’s go to trial! It wasn’t our call. What was attached to the $30,000 settlement was 280 grand in lawyer fees. So the lawyers have a huge realization. The city’s got deep pockets. You might not get your 8 million, but I’ll get my 300. Dan Proft: You gave your lawyers, yeah. Shakespeare had something to say about lawyers. Dan Proft: Morale – this is something that’s brought up all the time. You’re reducing police morale; how important is that, because morale is sort of this nebulous concept? All of the things we’re talking about; how does police morale, as somebody who was on the street and now represents the majority of 13,000 officers in Chicago Police Department, how does that manifest itself? Dean Angelo Sr.: We had a general meeting, the 3rd Tuesday of every month, and we had a meeting, it’s probably about 250 people at the last one, and I looked out from the mic and we’ve got some really boisterous people, girls and guys, and the union meeting is quite active, even on a good day; and they’re sitting there, they’re just exhausted, they’re beat up, they’re sick and tired of the brush they’re being painted with. They are going to court every day. They’re still locking people up, they’re still taking guns off the street, and when we hear things like there are 402 police shootings in an 8 year period, police are shooting .98 people – almost one person a week for 8 years – but nobody says, over those same 8 years we took 87,000 guns off the street; 87,000. We locked up 37,000+ people with UUW Arrest, which means you’ve got a gun. Dan Proft: Unlawful use of a weapon. Dean Angelo Sr.: Right, unlawful use of a weapon. We also had 13,000+ police officers battered in the same 8 years. Nobody talks about that. But when I say that we had 37,000 guns, 36,000+ taken off the street with a body with a gun, and we only had 400 police shootings, each one of those had the potential to be a police involved shooting. Nobody gives these girls and these guys credit for what they do. They’re amazing. Everybody goes, “Oh my God, you’re shooting one person a week”. And then it was we’re killing one guy a week, and then we’re shooting them in the back, and all of this media stuff that makes no sense, it’s ridiculous, it’s nothing but bs, but it gets that person writing about CHA a byline on front page; and that’s all that matters. It’s hard to catch up to that lie with facts, but nobody cares about it, because the lie’s already out of the box. And they’re exhausted, they’re tired of it. They’re getting aggravated but they still go every day. There’s no blue flu, there’s no slowdown; maybe the street stops are slowed down, but I can tell you that the cost for service has got to be through the roof. Dan Proft: Yeah, “A lie travels halfway around the world before the truth gets its pants on”, that’s Mark Twain, right? Dean Angelo Sr.: Something like that. Dan Proft: And also the contextual, I mean, if you’re purposefully describing things out of context, that’s [inaudible 00:50:02] to a lie, so this is where you manipulate statistics. So let me ask you another question about morale. You see Rahm Emanuel, or Tiny Dancer, a term I popularized for him – he doesn’t appreciate it, but… Dean Angelo Sr.: I wonder why? Dan Proft: I don’t know. I’m just trying to extol his career as a ballerina. He is willing to sell a billion dollars in city bonds so George Lucas can put his toys in a building off Lakeshore Drive, but not willing to find the cash, nor is the city council, to hire more police officers. Do we need more police officers in the city of Chicago, and should that be a budget priority? Dean Angelo Sr.: I think so. I think we need – you mentioned 13, I think we have 12 in a quarter – but when I came out it was 13-5, and I’ve got a 7 year old grandson, so I would like to see Lucas’ Starwars Museum here, because he’d love it; he’s a Starwars freak. But at the expense of hiring more people we’d have to trade off. I think that we need a lot more policemen. I also think we need a lot more detectives, and we have the largest ratio supervisors to subordinates; it’s 14 to 1; fourteen police officers to every sergeant. And that’s unheard of across the country. That’s one of the things the DOG is going to come up with. If you look at the other reports, it’s kind of cut and paste. Dan Proft: What about that? Just for a second, you talked about more detectives, because one of the other issues is the clearance rate for murder investigations. It has been 25% for a few years; this year it’s down to 12-13%. If you’re not holding people responsible, catching and prosecuting people that are responsible for murder, it kind of sends a message to the ecosystem that I can shoot and kill people and nobody’s going to catch me. Dean Angelo Sr.: Right. When I was training new detectives, we had a 46% clear-up rate and I liked Terry Hillard when he was never detective, but he was chief of detectives, and he was superintendent, and I see him, and if he sees us he’s going to say, “Why did you say that?” “Because it’s true”. When he signed away the 72 roll – you could hold somebody for 72 hours and he minimizes it, even though Cook County still has 72 hours, you’ve got a 48 hour roll and so by the time you get arrested to the time you get cut loose, you’re done. You’ve got to go or you got to get charged. And we said, when that happened, there goes the clear-up rate, because all you have to do is hold your water for a couple baloney sandwiches and a nap and you’re going home. So that was the biggest impact, I think, in the clear-up rate. Plus, we used to have over 1000 detectives. We have less than 900 now, I believe. Just had a new detectives exam, and hopefully they promote one more class before this exam is done, because we’re going to lose a lot of those guys when the insurance benefit changes in June. If you’re 55 years old and you have 20 years in service, your medical is picked up to your 65, and that ends in June, so a lot of guys are going to be going in this next calendar year. That’s going to have a big impact on the detective division, where most of our senior people are at. And I think it’s important for people to realize that the clear-up rate is associated with your work load. When you have 2 days off, you’re getting jobs put in your basket, as a detective, even though you’re not there. You get assigned and you have to clear them up. You have to contact the victims and witnesses and progress the reports – called moving the ax – until you close it either by arrest or lack of prosecution intentions or exceptionally cleared because you can’t get in touch with anyone. So they’re different options available to you for that. But in the meantime, you’ve got a late list that you’re already working on, and when you get an in-custody or in progress or somebody gets arrested and you get a scene, everybody goes, and while you’re working that scene you’re still getting cases dropped in your box. You never catch up, ever. By the time you’re close to your retirement, you’ll probably spend your last month – or two, depending on the amount of volume on your late list – to close those cases or suspend them to somebody else, just so when you leave no one is hanging on your list, that they’d have no idea of what work is done and now they have to go back and try to catch up on that. So the amount of work a detective has on them every single day, it never ends. It’s like being on a spinning wheel, and then you have in-progresses, and in-custodies and scenes, and then you have court in the meantime. Those guys will walk around with coffee mugs duct taped to their heads. It’s incredible. Dan Proft: I see you mentioned retirement. I have to ask you a financial question. Police pension, like the fire pension in the city of Chicago, less than 30% funded. Huge unfunded liability, and this is a political question, in terms of political leadership, but it’s also a financial question, particularly with the idea of wanting to hire more police officers. Illinois Policy Institute did a look at this; Chicago police officer retiring today, 30 years in, will have put in – these are round numbers – 135 grand in, will have paid 135 grand in, will get back something on the order of 1.8 million if they live to medium life expectancy for their age cohort. Is that a sustainable system in terms of that kind of return on contribution? We’ve talked about this with public sector unions across the board; and if it’s not, is the FOP interested in being a constructive voice in rethinking how we do public sector pensions on a go forward basis for benefits not yet earned so that police officers who retire don’t someday get an IOU in the mail instead of a pension check? Dean Angelo Sr.: We’re working on that right now. We’re not working on changing the system… Dan Proft: I understand. Dean Angelo Sr.: Because if you change the system… Dan Proft: Even prospectively, though. Dean Angelo Sr.: Right, and you put newer people in the 401(k) type of thing, which I believe the governor loves, and also do his people, they then deplete the contributions to the annuitants that are presently on retirement, and then the near future annuitants are depleted on their funding that’s available to them to go. So you’re going to have a population that just gets cut out. Dan Proft: Like a defined contributions system. The flipside of this is to say with that funding level, which is trending towards insolvency – I mean, let’s be honest about those numbers; they should be very concerning to police officers that are in their 40s, for example – what are defined contributions? Some kind of change on a perspective basis that ensures the financial solubility of the system… Dean Angelo Sr.: What we’re working on is to get Senate Bill 777 pushed, even though there’s some controversy about that being the financial benefit for our members; some people that don’t know what you’re talking about put it out, the governor should veto it, and that got me extremely aggravated on the road here this afternoon. Dan Proft: And tell people about 777 bill. Dean Angelo Sr.: 777 is a re-ramping of the arch that was the required contribution that was done – I think it was 2007, more or less, and right now the city owes us 598 million – under the new senate bill structure of 777, which is linked to the casino, if in fact the casino ever comes. But it’s a new amount, of about 472, I think, this year, which is already met by the property tax increase that we just had with the 500 million. So the city doesn’t have to look for any more money. It gets us about 74.3 cents on the dollar for the next five years, and then it kicks back up and we wind up collecting the rest of the money that’s owed us now under the old system. There is a mechanism in place, and the new program in Senate Bill 777, that’s not available in 13-90, where it’s enforceable with a Mandamus act. So we can literally go after them and get the money, the full amount. The old way is giving us the tax base, which is 33 million dollars. 11 go to fire and 22 go to us. It’s nothing, so the people that think that we’re better off with the old system than with the new one just do not know what they’re talking about. Dan Proft: Do you think – don’t mean to interrupt – do you think Rahm Emanuel has been a good mayor for police, either from a public safety and job quality perspective or from a financial security perspective? Dean Angelo Sr.: I don’t think his support is recognized as much as it could be. And I don’t know why. Because he has a relative that’s retired as a Chicago police officer, he was a sergeant; he was actually a union representative as a detective. He genuinely is concerned about the women and men of the police department. He probably could be more vocal about it, but again, it doesn’t get people to his side of the voting aisle right now. So as a 61 year old 36 year vet, I get it. And I understand more now I ever did as a younger policeman. I probably wouldn’t be able to tolerate a lot, but at this stage of my life and focused on what we have ahead of us, I see that we have opportunities to work together to get through. The language of 777 is one, because based on that language and the property tax, our pensions will be okay. We don’t have to get to 90%; once you’re at 60-70%, it starts feeding itself instead of feeding off of itself as it is now. We’re selling assets. Dan Proft: Yeah, cannibalizing. Dean Angelo Sr.: Right, so there isn’t a long shelf life for us, and we need to do something now, so somebody that would think that it’s good to veto that bill so that we get written out of it if it goes back again is idiotic. And is it the savior? No, but accompanied with the property tax, dedicated to police and fire, and the language of 777, it’s important to us to try to secure as many opportunities as possible. Is it a fix? Completely no, but if you talk to a Ralph Martire from the Tax and Budget Accountability, they know that there’s a set level plane of contributions that has to be made. It’s expensive in the beginning, but once it starts to level off and it’s a steady stream of deposits that nobody else gets their hands on. It goes right in the fund. Like the IMRF… Dan Proft: Ministry of Retirement Fund. Dean Angelo Sr.: They‘re 97% funded. Why is that? Because nobody gets it. Dan Proft: And because [inaudible 00:01:54] aren’t required to make their contribution under threat of punishment. Dean Angelo Sr.: But it goes to the controller, then it goes to the fund. It doesn’t go to anybody else. And that’s what these are designed for. What will happen eventually is that level plane is deposited, the property tax and the new arch that we have; we will get to a point that those lines will intersect sooner than they will now, if they’ll ever do any intersecting. So it’s an opportunity for us to fix this. Is it going to happen in my lifetime? Depends on how long I live. But it has to happen for my kid. It has to happen for those guys and girls that have 10, 15 and 20 years on. They need this, so we entered into an agreement with the mayor’s office and with Springfield; we were able to make this pass, and what we need to do is make sure that we keep an eye on those things and we try to wiggle them through the process. If the governor does veto it, we have to make sure that we work with the constituents down or the elected down Springfield to get that passed. So this is one last financial burden that everybody has to worry about. We’re going to be okay if in fact we get that along with the property tax. We’ll be okay. We won’t be solvent next week, but we’ll be on a good path. Dan Proft: Last item. If there is something that you could say to minority families, in the city of Chicago in particular, that live in some of those shooting galleries we’ve discussed through the duration of our conversation, on the West side and the South side, about the Chicago police department, what would it be? Dean Angelo Sr.: Well, you know, we’ve got families that have grown up without a lot of trust in the police department, for obvious reasons. It’s either the crime or it’s mistreatment, or it’s just disrespect. I think that what they need to know is that even if someone is a little off their game, the police are there to help you. The police are there to protect your families. We don’t want to see these little kids get shot. We don’t want to see you not being able to play outside, or not sit on your front porch. We want it to go back to the way it was. Will it ever go back? I don’t know. Will we ever get everyone to like us? We’re not out for that. There is a job description that comes with policing that’s going to aggravate people and it’s going to piss them off, because you’re going to jail; and it might be your father, it might be your brother, and prisons are loaded with people that didn’t do anything, and “Police put me here for no reason, or they beat me into a confession”. Dan Proft: Lawyer screwed me, in the Shawshank Redemption. Dean Angelo Sr.: So what we have to do is make sure that we meet that halfway. And I’ve offered opportunities, I talked to Kwame Errol, I talked to L.G. Sims, I want to talk to the neighborhoods and get out there, but they don’t want to deal with us, they don’t like us, because we’ve been painted with their brush and this is all on us, and that was wrong. So now they don’t like us besides not liking the police, so it’s difficult for us to now have to go over that speed bump that should never be in place. But these ladies and these guys that are out there, working in these districts and these high crime areas are there because they want to help; they want to keep a lid on things. Do we have some people that have to learn how to talk? Yeah. Everybody does. Do we have some people that need to stop being aggressive with people that have done nothing? Sure. But you have to remember, when we get out of the car and we walk up to you, we don’t know who you are. We don’t know that you’re legit. We don’t know that you’ve just come in from work. We don’t know who the people are until we figure it out and talk to them. So if I come up to you and you want to box right away, “Whoa, I don’t know you”. Somebody called me and you fit the description, so until I find out you’re okay I’m going to be on guard. I’m going home, I’ve got kids. I’ve got kids, I’m going home. Dan Proft: Just follow Chris Rock’s How not to get your ass kicked by the police rule and there’s no problem. Dean Angelo Sr.: I love that. You know what, it’s compliance. An adult doesn’t like to be told what to do, I get that, but as police, you can’t put that adult in the corner either, because he’s going to come out swinging. So there’s got to be a happy meeting, there’s got to be a way for us to approach an individual and say “Hey, listen, excuse me, but…”, but you’re not going to say “Hey, listen, excuse me” to a corner full of kids that are out there throwing rock and gunning up, because that doesn’t work; not at all. You can’t go, Mr. Rogers, “Excuse me, guys, let me button my sweater and sit down and gumbaya”. It’s not going to happen; so we’ve got to know when to use that aggressiveness and when to not. I think talking to people, getting people involved, I think hugely important now is for elected to get in the squad car. And I sat with the superintendent wearing their body camera, I said put on a blue shirt. Don’t go out there as a superintendent. Go out there as a beat guy and then see how that works for you. Dan Proft: Alright, he’s Dean Angelo, Sr. – he’s the President of the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 7 in Chicago. Dean, thanks so much for joining us, appreciate it. Dean Angelo Sr.: My pleasure, it was fun. Dan Proft: It was great, thank you.